Update on Our Horse Training

There are a lot of horse and riding trainers out there and we have sampled a lot of them. The test of any trainer, in my opinion, is how well the student does when they get back home on their own with their horse.

Does the training you receive translate well into how you work with your horse at home?

With that test in mind, there is no question in our minds that our work with Jennifer Bauer and Larry Whitesell in Cookeville, Tennessee has been the best. Every time we work with them, the training translates well to our work at home with Sugar and Morgunn.

We worked for three days with Jennifer in July. Since we have been home we have seen real results in both our riding and our horses. Jennifer is excellent in helping us be better riders which translates into Sugar and Morgunn being better horses.

Betty is making real strides with Morgunn. His gait (tolt) has always been excellent. She is able to transition him from a walk into his tolt in a smooth way. She is able to do shoulder-in's with him along the fence rail on one side very well. Don't worry if you're not a horse person and don't know these terms - it's not important - just know that it's an indication of how Betty is riding and getting Morgunn to understand and move with her.

Morgunn used to be very head strong and would move the way he wanted to go sometimes. Jennifer helped Betty a lot with that and it's paid off well. He rarely does it any more and, when he thinks about it, Betty knows what to do to get him back in line with her without pulling on his mouth.

My work with Sugar is going well too. She stops and backs softly with the lightest body cues. This is an improvement because she got into a habit of walking through her stops and not backing up. Most of the problem was with me and Jennifer's coaching was a big help in the two of us getting back into line together.

Sugar doesn't do a shoulder-in as well as Morgunn, but she's starting to respond well to leg-yields. All we're doing now is going for a lateral step or two and that's working well. She also is responding well to transitions in speed - from a slow walk to an extended walk and back to a slow walk.

On Wednesday, her gait was really trotty. I wasn't concerned because I knew she needed to build her muscles after the long lay off in July. Yesterday, Friday, her gait was much smoother - a more balanced Rocky Mountain Horse gait. So I was pleased.

So, is Jennifer Bauer a good trainer? Using my test mentioned earlier of taking what she taught us and using it at home with Sugar and Morgunn - you bet she's a good trainer - one of the best!

 

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Third Day of Riding - Betty At Least

On Thursday, we worked with Sugar and Morgunn for the third time this week. I continued to work with Sugar on the ground - this picture is her ground tied which she does well. She's almost completely shed out and looks pretty good to my eye.

Betty had her best day on Morgunn. He's a strong, somewhat headstrong horse and she's doing a good job communicating with him through her hands, seat and legs. Hopefully, we'll get a couple of days next week as well.

 

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Back in the Saddle Again

At least for Betty.

I can't ride until June at the earliest because of my surgery, but Betty is working again with Morgunn. While she rides him, I have been doing a little ground work with Sugar - nothing strenuous, just changes in direction, getting her to follow me, backing, etc. It's a way for me to stay in touch with her.

Betty did well with Morgunn given it's been over a month since she worked with him. He does a whole lot better when she gets him moving forward at a good pace. She actually has more control of him when she moves him out - even doing circles and figure eights. She did a good job with Morgunn and finished on a good note.

 

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Back in the Saddle Again

After several weeks of cold, windy weather, today was still windy but a little warmer. So, we were able to get out into the back and work with the horses. We didn't do much since they have been off for several weeks, but it was a good day to begin stretching muscles again.

Hopefully, we will be able to ride again Sunday.

 

 

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Back in the Saddle - One More Time

After riding just once a week or so ago, we finally got our schedule and the weather lined up where we could ride again yesterday, Monday.

This is only the second time Morgunn has been ridden since before Christmas and the first time for Sugar. They both did pretty well.

One of the learning objectives for both of us is learning how to ride on our weak side. What I mean by that is both the horses and we have better and worse sides. Both Sugar and Morgunn do much better when we're riding them to the left. They aren't as good when we ride them to the right. Going left well means the muscles on their right side are much looser and stretch better than the muscles on their left side.

But they're not the only problem. Betty and I do much better with our cues when we're going left. Neither of us are as smooth and confident going to our right. Our muscle alignment is better one way than the other.

Finally, it's also a challenge to our minds - us and the horses. We all have to learn to think clearly and confidently when we're going both way.

So, we and the horses still have much to learn and to get better - but that's what makes riding so much fun.

 

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Woo Hoo --- Back in the Saddle

It has been a month (more for Betty) since we have been able to ride the horses. We would have tried to ride last week if I hadn't been so darn sick. Plus, it's been really cold up until yesterday.

Today was even better - only about 37 degrees when we went out, but our New Mexico sun made it feel about 55 degrees so it was a good day.

When Betty left early before Christmas to be with our youngest son for his surgery, I rode Morgunn once while she was gone. Morgunn was trained in an old-fashioned way with a heavy hand so Betty has been working with him to get him lighter and more responsive to light cues.

When I rode him before Christmas there were a couple of things I figured out that might help and that's what Betty worked on this morning. She did very well and Morgunn responded pretty well, even with a month off.

We hope to ride tomorrow morning, but that might be it for a while. Friday is supposed to be colder and perhaps a little messy - rain and/or snow. Then the bottom is supposed to drop out over the weekend and be much, much colder. Oh well, even a couple of days riding is better than nothing this time of year.

 

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A Good Day Horseback

Betty and I had a pretty good morning working with Sugar and Morgunn, yesterday (Monday). After we do our ground warm ups, we head towards our mounting block. We use a mounting block every chance we get to preserve Sugar and Morgunn's backs.

 

 

 

We work with both horses in separate areas. Betty starts out in our round pen. This is her heading Morgunn in that direction. I start out by working Sugar in the more open area outside of the round pen. We have four orange cones that we use to work them first in large circles and then in smaller circles using a clover-leaf pattern around the cones.

Working separately gives us the opportunity to work with them without them being distracted by the other horse.

After awhile, we swap and I work Sugar in the round pen and Betty works outside.

 

Of course, after a hard morning's work, a girl has to have a bath, even if it is a dust bath.

 

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Riding Thoughts - 6

Betty and I worked with Morgunn and Sugar yesterday, Wednesday. Both horses had really good days - perhaps because Betty and I had good days.

We're very aware now that how we ride affects how our horses perform.

Betty had Morgunn turning, moving and changing speeds with the slightest of cues. He's a strong horse and was trained in a way that used strong cues and that was what he was used to. She is going a great job helping him to learn that her lighter cues are better for him when he responds to them.

Sugar has always been lighter than Morgunn so I haven't had to work as hard with her to get her to respond to my lighter cues. My work has been on her transitions from a walk, to an extended walk and to a gait. At first she would jump into any transition, throwing her head up. Now she's moving from one speed to another, up or down, without any radical change in her balance and rhythm.

The reality is they're getting better as we get better. More work to do, but it's great fun to have a philosophy and a program that's working for us and for them.

More thoughts from Dominique Barbier...

As soon as something is wrong and the horse grows tense, listen to your horse.

Any contact greater than the lightness of the reins will impede both lightness and the horse's desire to perform.

Collection is maximum impulsion in lightness.

Trying to 'collect' the horse with any sort of strong contact is compression.

We must allow the horse to perform, allow him to enjoy his job, not drive him.

Respect the horse's mouth and the horse will respect your hands.

Rein back - If horse has weak back, sit as lightly as you can to allow that weak back to round up under you. Make sure you have impulsion at the halt. Then a very short, timed closing of the fingers will act like a wall and reverse the direction of the impulsion.

Too much work on anything will bore your horse and make him resistant. Work well, work short. Vary it up.

Know the value of short lessons - 20 minutes or less; use 'instant quits' - if the horse does what I ask, I stop as a reward.

A horse's best on any given day doesn't mean perfection - just the best he can do at that particular moment.

 

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Riding Thoughts - 5

This past summer, Betty and I worked with a trainer in Tennessee named Jennifer Bauer and we learned a ton of good stuff. We've been working on those principles and techniques ever since. Jennifer just came out with a new training video called "Riding the Gaited Horse." Even though Jennifer and her mentor Larry Whitesell specialize in gaited horses, their philosophy is based on classical horse training from the Spanish School of Training so it works with any horse.

We watched the first of the three DVDs and the focus was on working on balance, timing and rhythm - both in ourselves as riders and in the horse. The first DVD also stressed the importance of riding circles to teach the horse how to reach under himself to gain collection. Several exercises were shown.

This morning we worked with Sugar and Morgunn on balance, timing and rhythm using the circle exercises and they both responded well. Both of us worked on our body and hand positions and using our hands on the reins as a signal and our body to actually give the cue for a change in direction or speed.

Here are some more thoughts from Dominique Barbier, Jennifer and Larry's mentor.

Work your horse with finger tip delicacy.

The less you ride them the better they are.

Work on not interfering with the horse. Put the horse in the position the horse likes best to do a certain movement. Then communicate by visualizing what you want.

Good balance is related to rhythm, so you must find the right rhythm for your horse. Most of the time, the less one does, the better and the more relaxed the horse is.

Ask very little and reward frequently.

You always have the opportunity of stopping when something goes wrong, then starting anew with a "new rider" and a "new horse."

As soon as something is wrong and the horse grows tense, listen to your horse.

Any contact greater than the lightness of the reins will impede both lightness and the horse's desire to perform.

Collection is maximum impulsion in lightness.

Trying to 'collect' the horse with any sort of strong contact is compression.

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Riding Thoughts - 4

Betty and I were supposed to meet with someone this morning for pastoral counseling, but she canceled. So, were able to work some more with Sugar and Morgunn. Both horses did well.

Betty continues to make strides in getting Morgunn to respond to her cues without pulling on his mouth. He's doing better and better. Now Betty can ride him down around our stable and back out to our arena area without him making a big deal about it. They have come a long way.

Sugar continues to respond well to my cues. I need to do a better job of being clear in my own mind about what I want before giving the cues. Her gait is still improving. On our last gait she started off kind of trotty but settled into a nice four-beat gait without me doing anything. I just relaxed and gave her the opportunity to find the gait on her own and she did.

Here's a picture of Morgunn doing is favorite post-ride activity.

He loves to roll in the gravel. I'm sure it feels good on his back after the saddle is removed. Here's a close up of his face where you can see his tongue sticking out.

I love Sugar's winter coat. In the summer she looks more black. However, in the winter you can see she's really a chocolate brown which is a traditional Rocky Mountain Horse color.

And, if you look close she has patches of gold showing. You can see the streaks in her haunches and the whole bottom of her stomach is golden in color. The front part is in shadow and looks darker.

Here are some more riding thoughts from Dominique Barbier...

Working in hand - never lead or pull the horse forward; use the whip or cluck; make the horse make the first move, not you.

Working in hand - don't look into the horse's eyes.

Working in hand - if having trouble, stand more in front of the horse.

The horse must know that you are going to keep asking until he decides to do it.

Halt through relaxation, not tension.

Never pull with your hands.

Playing with the fingers means a very quick opening and closing of the fingers of one or both hands, coupled with a very clear mental message.

Opening the fingers must always be looked at as a reward.

Don't go for long periods with fingers closed; keep it light.

Start to give with the reins when you want to pull.

Impulsion is the level of energy in your brain.

Ask the horse which position or balance is the best way to perform and listen to them.

 

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Riding Thoughts - 3

I had a dental appointment this morning that went well. After I returned home, Betty and I worked with Morgunn and Sugar some more. Yesterday, Sugar had a not so great day while today she did really well. Yesterday, Morgunn did pretty well and yet today Betty had some difficulties - but she worked through them well. Just a reminder that horses are like us - they good days and bad days, they have their own thoughts about what they want to do and we have to work with them to show them a better way.

Here is another group of thoughts about riding from Dominique Barbier:

Move your walls so that you can change the horse's direction the instant he is wrong.

Get impulsion; imagine the horse dancing in mid-air.

Float with the horse; melt into them.

Believe that when you leave them alone they will do things for you.

Remember to smile.

Ask the same simple sentence every time.

Know what you want - strong minded - no doubts.

Patience must be infinite.

Let the horse slip; he will learn his own balance.

Consistency will eliminate stress.

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Riding Thoughts 2

Betty and I had another good session with Morgunn and Sugar yesterday morning. Betty is getting more subtle and consistent with her cues and Morgunn is responding more consistently. Sugar is becoming more collected and her gait is smoother and more consistent over time. All in all, a good day.

Here are 10 more thoughts from Dominique Barbier about classical riding...

If you expect problems they will come to you.

Have no doubt about what you can do.

Take time to enjoy the pleasure of each new contact with your horse. Remember, you are both experiencing the ongoing process of getting to know each other.

Visualize what you want before you ask; everything must come from the brain.

Don't steer - use mental projection; picture where you want to go.

Let it come from the horse, let them teach you; have a "clever seat bone" that will listen to the horse.

Your body must tell the horse everything is alright; calm, relaxed, and light.

Don't waste energy on anger; rise above it.

Don't get involved personally and/or emotionally, especially when things aren't working as expected.

Be in two places when you ride; sitting on the side watching yourself as you ride.

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Thoughts on Riding - 1

Betty and I continue to work with Sugar and Morgunn using the principles and techniques we learned from Larry Whitesell and Jennifer Bauer. Larry and Jennifer continue to take lessons from their mentor, Dominique Barbier, who is a classical trained rider in the Spanish school tradition.

While we were at the training we watched a video of Barbier and I made quite a few notes of his thoughts and principles that he shared. Over time I will occasionally share 10 of these for those who are interested in riding.

Here are the first 10:

The rider is like the feather on the nose of a clown. It takes very little movement from the tip of the feather to make the clown move.

I want to encourage self balance on the horse. I am not in charge of his balance, he is.

Know what you want before you start.

Believe in how easy it is to ride; relax and think.

Talk to the horse with your mind - "I would rather walk..."

When you know what you want, the horse will do it.

Less is more.

Keep the relaxation in the horse's brain, nothing is more important than that.

Use your mind to get the energy from the horse; your body is light and passive.

All interfering emotions must be replaced by calm determination, relaxation, and positive thinking.

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Be Prepared

As a kid I was a Cub Scout and then a Boy Scout for a few years. I never got past Second Class - more interested in baseball and comic books. But, to this day, I still remember the Boy Scout motto - Be Prepared!

This came to my mind this morning as Betty and I worked with Sugar and Morgunn in the back using the things we learned at our riding lessons in Tennessee.

One of the things that became clear is that before we ask the horse to do something we need to prepare ourselves and them for the move. A good example of this is asking Morgunn for a turn.

Betty was having a little trouble stopping his turn as getting him to go forward out of the turn.

As we analyzed what was happening, Betty realized that she was holding her cue for the turn too long. I was doing the same with Sugar.

We both started releasing the turn cue as we progressed through the turn and prepared ourselves and the horses for straightening and going forward while still in the turn.

We realized we need to stay ahead of our horses in our thinking so that we're prepared for each cue before it's time to execute that cue.

All in all, a good morning working with the horses.

 

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So What Were We Doing in Cookeville, Tennessee?

As you probably know, Betty and I just came home from a three-week driving trip that took us to Mount Vernon, Ohio to visit our youngest son and his family, then to Bowling Green, Kentucky to visit my sister and her family, then to Franklin, Tennessee to visit with Betty's stepmother and sister, and finally to Cookeville, Tennessee.

Back in early June, I took a five-day clinic with Larry Whitesell and Jennifer Bauer. There were 7 of us in the clinic and I was the only one who didn't bring a personal horse.

Larry Whitesell is a recognized gaited horse trainer and Jennifer Bauer is his partner/protegee. Larry is a few years younger than me and Jennifer is a very young 30. It is clear that Larry is preparing Jennifer to take over most of their clinic business and all of their horse training business.

The two of them do five-day clinics together, both in Cookeville and in other cities. Separately, they each do three-day clinics. As I write this, Larry is in Oregon doing clinics and then moving on to Ohio and Canada before returning home.

Of the two, Jennifer is the one who will work with problem gaited horses and bring them back into relaxation, balance and flexion. She is in such demand that the next opening she has for another horse is next June, 2013. She will not take a horse unless the owner agrees to take a three-day course with her to be sure they can continue the work she has done. They learned from past experience that they would often bring a horse up to a high level, but the owner wasn't prepared to keep them there.

Jennifer is also the one who will do private lessons. I learned so much from the earlier clinic that I wanted Betty to share in that learning, so we arranged five private lessons with Jennifer who is both an excellent rider and excellent teacher.

Their approach is not basic foundational work, often lumped under the term 'natural horsemanship.' They believe in 'natural horsemanship,' but view it as the foundational work that a new horse or rehab horse needs. However, once the horse has that foundation, they offer training for the rider to bring him and the horse to a higher level.

Their training is classical rider training based on the Spanish School of Horsemanship. Their personal mentors are Mark Russell and Dominique Barbier, both of California. Larry and Jennifer go for a week of personal training from these men each summer to continue to hone their personal skills.

Even though we often associate classical training with Dressage, their philosophy is the concepts and skills of classical training are applicable to all forms of riding.

In a simplified form, they help the rider find balance, relaxation and lightness within themselves to help the horse find balance, relaxation and lightness. In other words, if we want our horse to be more balanced, more relaxed and lighter, then we need to improve balance, relaxation and lightness within ourselves.

We do this within ourselves and for our horse by being a balanced rider and by helping our horse find his rhythm through our balance and timing.

Over the next few days, I'll post more about the concepts that we learned that are helping us and ultimately will help Morgunn and Sugar.

If you're interested in learning more about Larry Whitesell and Jennifer Bauer, here are the links to their websites:

Larry's site - http://whitesellgaitedhorsemanship.com/


Jennifer's site - http://www.gaitedhorsemanship.com/

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Hi From Baxter, Tennessee

Betty and I have one more day in our riding lessons with Jennifer Bauer. We have learned a ton and I'll share more when I get home.

This picture is us in the arena on Wednesday morning. Betty was riding Fresco and I was riding Bubba - what a great name. Fresco is super trained so you get to feel what any move is supposed to feel like when you do it right. Bubba is a little more of a challenge.

More later.

 

For you Mythbusters fans here's a great photo I got from our good friend Molly...

 

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Persistence vs. Insistence

Betty and I worked with Morgunn and Sugar yesterday and today, Thursday. Because of the hot days, we're starting about 7:45 in the morning and working with them for about 45 minutes to an hour. Both Sugar and Morgunn had pretty good days - not perfect - but decent.

We're trying to apply some of the learning from both the clinic I attended and the principles in the books we have just read (and reviewed on this blog in the last week or so).

One key principle from the book is the idea of persistence versus insistence. In the past, we rode with the idea of insistence - insisting the horses do a certain thing based on the cues we were giving them. We didn't realize it, but we were trying to ride with control over our horses. We might have gotten some obedience from them, but not a trusting willingness to work with us.

Persistence is based on the concept of giving the right cues, the cues you want the horse to respond to, and letting him learn how to respond and believing that the horse will eventually figure it out. The concept is not one of control, but one of believing that the horse will learn how to respond to consistent and appropriate cues - and in giving him the freedom to experiment we will develop a willing partner rather than an obedient serf.

Insistence is short-term thinking and action - do it now - whereas persistence is long-term and requires much more patience on our part.

The book we read told how the author, at a clinic, watched Bill Dorrance work with a horse with trailer loading issues. Bill worked with the horse for several hours. During that time, the author said she saw four different times when she would have gotten the horse to step into the trailer, but Dorrance chose not to do that.

At the end of Bill's time working with the horse, he still had not stepped into the trailer. When Dorrance discussed his work with the clinic participants, he said there were several times when he could have gotten the horse to step into the trailer, but that was not his goal. He said his goal was to have the horse feel good about stepping into the trailer when he did.

He never insisted the horse get into the trailer which most people would have said was a good, but short-term, goal. Dorrance persisted with his goal and belief that the horse would eventually load into the trailer and, when he did, he would feel good about it. Definitely a longer-term goal - and one we would all like to achieve.

Achieving long-term goals with our horses require us to give up our short-term, insistent thinking for a longer-term persistence and a whole lot more patience.

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Book Review - Of Life and Horses (2)

About a week ago I did a review of the first book that Ann Nyberg Bradley wrote called Of Life and Horses - The Nature of the Horse. Click here to see that review.

I recently finished the second book called of Life and Horses - Cooperation Through Communication. Whereas the first book focused on better understanding the basic nature of the horse, this book looks at how our understanding of that basic nature can influence how we communicate with the horse.

Again, there is way too much content to get into in just a blog post, so I'll share some nuggets as I did last time.

• From the introduction: Ultimately, the human/horse union is one in which our mind controls the horse's body. ... Some riders will attempt to physically control a horse's body, but he knows how to operate his body far better and more effectively than we do. So, in that sense, if we can convey the idea of what we want then we can let him do it. In that manner our aids can remain light, polite and tactful.
  
• From the chapter on the language of communication: When training a horse, there is a distinction between obedience and willing cooperation. It is possible to obtain obedience and/or submission through force, fear, pain, and/or intimidation, but willing cooperation can only be offered by the horse.
  
• From the chapter on underlying intention and expectations: The most important training tools we possess are our underlying intentions and expecations. They are projected through our body language and are how we communicate with the horse. ... It's important to be aware of the feel you present to a horse all the time, because the feel you present will dictate the response/s you receive.
  
• From the chapter on the flip side of the coin: The rider needs to feel what he wants the horse to do, even when the horse isn't doing it - and especially when the horse isn't doing it.
  
• From the chapter on punishment vs. reward: When people punish (correct) the wrong answer they think they are punishing the horse's behavior, but to the horse it is his try - his attempt - that is being punished. If his try is punished enough, he'll quit trying.
  
• From the chapter on first impulse: In our training, the first thing we need to focus on is the horse's first impulse. That is his very first reaction to what we do, the reaction that occurs in the first instant following a request.
  
• From the chapter on persistence vs. insistence: Insistence is our way of controlling a horse. Too often the feel of insistence from the human is met with opposition in the horse. Persistence has a different feel to it. Persistence is about waiting, accepting what is, making a request for a change, and then waiting for the change to happen. Ironically, we often have more influence over a horse when we give up our notion of controlling him.
  
• Again from the chapter on persistence vs. insistence: Insistence arises from a lack of inner composure, a lack of inner control, and a lack in the belief that we will be able to elicit a change. Persistence arises from an inner place of being okay with whatever is happening in the moment coupled with the knowledge that it can and will change.
  

As with the first book, there is so much more than these small nuggets suggest - feel, drive/draw, dominance and submission, point of view, power over fear, anxiety/tension and release, mind to feet connection, the rein aids, primary and secondary aids, balance vs. counter-balance, resistance and evasion, and more.

This book was as good if not better than the first and I highly recommend it to any person who wants to think deeper about their relationship with their horse.

We Keep On Learning

Yesterday, Friday, Betty and Morgunn had a good day while Sugar and I struggled, especially with her walking through my stop cues. Today, Sugar was a dream, stopping softly at every request while Betty and Morgunn struggled. It's a reminder that, as we've said before, horses have good and bad days just as we do.

The challenge for us is to learn from every riding experience. What can we learn from today, good and not so good, that will help us become better riders? One thing I'm learning is how important it is to try and keep my emotional state on an even keel regardless of the kind of day Sugar has. It was easy for me to get frustrated yesterday and feel really good today. My goal is to feel the same way every day regardless of how she does. Not easy, but it's something for me to work toward as I want to be a source of stability for her.

The other thing I worked on today was my arms and shoulders. I'm pretty sure yesterday as I closed my hands on the reins for the stop cue I was bringing my elbows in which tightened my arms and shoulders and that can affect my whole body, especially my hips and legs. That stiffness on my part may have been the reason she walked through the stop yesterday.

Today, I concentrated on trying to keep my arms and shoulders loose and relaxed even as I closed my hands on the reins. I also worked on keeping my legs down and my hips open so my lower body would be relaxed and would move with her movement.

Sometimes horses can make us feel good and other times very frustrated. The truth is Sugar is not making me feel one way or the other. It's my choice how I feel and I need to stay aware of that for her sake and for mine.

Attitude

Betty and I have been working with the horses over the past couple of weeks using what I learned at the clinic I went to. As mentioned in an earlier post, we've had good days and bad days.

Today, Monday, was interesting. Betty struggled with Morgunn in the beginning, but by the time we quit the two of them were working well together. Conversely, Sugar and I started out great, but toward the end she was walking through my stop cues which she rarely does.

So, we were both a little frustrated - Betty at the beginning and me at the end.

It got me to thinking about what attitude we should have when we work with the horses - and in life in general.

We believe in thinking positively, but what does that really mean? Does it mean going out to work with the horses thinking, "Today's going to be a great day, everything is going to go well?" The problem with that is when things don't go well and we're not having a great day, where do we go with our thinking, with our attitude? It's easy to get disappointed in the horse, in ourselves, or both and that's not helpful.

I think a better attitude is "No matter what happens today, I can handle it and work through it." That's still positive and perhaps more realistic. If we have a great day, then that's icing on the cake. If we don't have that great a day, then our thinking is in a better place to deal with it.

No matter what happens today, I can handle it and work through it.